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Author Topic: Guava Fleet  (Read 2707 times)

FingerTech

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Guava Fleet
« on: August 10, 2015, 10:35:49 pm »
From:    GuavaMoment   Jul-24 9:06 PM

*deep breath*

*blows off 4 years of dust*

Hello? Hello? This thing on? What's this "moved to SPARC" note mean? Screw it, let's go into the robot room for the first time in years and see what we find. (We find 6 years of crap and boxes and stuff) Seeing Battlebots again has really done a lot to motivate me. If it gets renewed, and opened up to lightweights, I am SO there. I even have a friend who lives in Orinda I never see that would be so down for going to Battelbots, and who would let me stay with. I'm finally back in a decent financial and free time situation. So let's look at what corpses I have lying around:

Limblifter's looking rough but easily fixable. New wheels needed, new side arms needed, but I think it's fine? The 60lb bot I've always wanted to build is a copy of this, so I should get Limblifter back in game shape for old time's sake.

Wizard Beard looks 100%, but wasn't a very good bot.

D...uh, + I think? I don't know where it's weapon is. Or how it got that way. It kind of always sucked too. So I think I need a new ant.

Papillion. Man, remember that thing? Travis didn't, he asked me if he could have the frame for it but couldn't remember the name. The frame's fine, but all the motors have twisted shafts. I'm pretty sure Greg was to blame for that.

Warcommander Turbolumberjack. Same deal.

Dexahedron looks pretty OK too. Good times.
 
So I imagine 6 or 7 years of neglect does bad things to batteries, right? I've still got a lot of crap to go through in the robot room, but I've been given a date of Sept 19, and I'm going to try real hard to make it.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 10:38:01 pm by FingerTech »
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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2015, 10:37:45 pm »
From:    NeedMoreRCs   Jul-25 12:59 PM
We were wondering if you were still alive. Welcome back!
 
From:    FingerTech Robotics     Jul-26 7:13 PM
Welcome back! Glad to see our relentless emails over the years have finally paid off. ;)
Seriously though, no one comes here anymore. We have our own board at SPARC: http://sparc.tools/forum/index.php?board=19.0
Since you've missed a few events, I expect to see a dozen or two entries from you.

From:    Travis7s   Jul-28 2:11 PM
Nice!
Limblifter should still be competitive, I think it really just needs modular attachments, sharp ones for fighting wedges, and defensive one for spinners.
Wizard Beard could still be good, I recall it being pretty slow as its main weakness. Again I would go with modular attachments.
One of the reasons I asked about Papillion was we stopped running the Mantis class a year or 2 after your departure, so there is not really any place for it or Lumberjack to fight...
We still talk about Dexa and how it took the huge chunk out of the wall. :P
Dirk's youtube channel (if you were unaware) has the latest footage of everyones robots, so thats the place to check out whats out there now...
https://www.youtube.com/user/needmorercs
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FingerTech

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2015, 10:38:28 pm »
From:    GuavaMoment   Jul-28 5:23 PM

I subscribed to Dirk's channel long ago, so I still see all the videos.

All the motors on Limblifter were coming loose from the gearbox. All of them. One of the motors is all but busted from that, but I've tightened everything up and I do have spares, so it should be good to go with little modification. Knowing all the gearboxes are fine is a big relief, what with seeing the state of the Banebots store right now. Where all the beetle motors at? The battery won't charge, and is probably a goner. I don't know about modular attachments for the front, I'd rather have one that works good against everything. I'm open to suggestions though!

All of my ants have underpowered drives, it's been an ongoing problem. Taking routine battle damage doesn't help. I haven't opened up the ants yet, but I think Wizard Beard's drive is unsalvageable. I have some old escaps that are heavy for an ant, but will fix that problem in a hurry.
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FingerTech

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2015, 10:39:12 pm »
From:    Travis7s   Jul-28 6:19 PM

Beetle motors are kind of scarce in terms of variety.
The B16 were popular but kind of expensive and maybe not available anymore:
http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/0-B16.html
 
"1000RPMs" are probably the standard these days.
http://www.kitbots.com/product.sc?productId=20  Although they are available on ebay.
 
"micah" motors are proven to be battleworthy and are very cheap on ebay...or not. Just took a look and now they are hard to find...
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Planetary-gear-motor-high-torque-Planetary-Motor-280-Reducer-Motor-magnetic-Free-Shipping-2pcs/1448924070.html
Just go back to tamiya planetary!
 
For attachments I mostly just meant a very low and sharp 'anti-wedge', and a more durable 'spinner killer' one
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GuavaMoment

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2015, 11:29:24 pm »
I didn't post a build write up like I used to on the old forums, and I suppose I ought to. It's nice having a kind of robot diary to look back on in 2021 when I decide it's time to show up to another event.  ;D

D+ is/was my ant spinner. I would always attach different weapons on the front each time, but the drive was always 50:1 copal gearmotors. I hated, hated the fact that I am just crap at building spinners. Blade hubs would fall off, or bearings woulds wear out or a million little problems would come up. I knew I could solve most of these problems by using brushless weapon motors like literally everyone else does, but I figured one more try couldn't hurt. I had a vision for the new D+ to be just all huge disk, kind of like Backlash used to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ea_Ho1R7-k

It turned out looking pretty much just like what I wanted it to. During rebuild I rediscovered how much I dislike the 50:1 copals. The output shaft has a press fit gear on it that wears out, and the motor tabs sometimes go, requiring you to pry open the end bell and resolder some wires to the brushes. I think I bought 4 of these ages ago and now only 2 remain functional. I had some problems with the scorpion ESC overheating due to the insanity of direct driving a weapon blade, but I fixed that by using a Banebots 12-45 ESC instead. As long as I could keep the weapon attached and pointed at the enemy, D+ might win a match or two?

D+ ruined a lot for me at Kilobots XXXI. Everything was fine at home but in the arena it wouldn't failsafe. The weapon would (when tx off) go forward for a few seconds, then reverse for a few seconds and repeat. I fixed it in my radio somehow, but in doing so undid all of my mixing settings. I wonder if there was actually someone else on that channel (75Mhz PPM) because that kind of failsafe behavior is just weird.

D+ vs Jeremy

Jeremy was pretty much a stock Viper kit, with 1/8" lexan front wedge. If all went went well I could break that. Due to the mixing being off nothing was driving the way it should, but I knew I could at least keep it pointed the right way long enough for a hit. The first hit did break a huge chunk of Jeremy's wedge, but also twisted the weapon shaft and the blade came off. I'm thinking "great, now I have to figure out how to push- oh wait Jeremy already pushed me out". Give Nathan all the credit in the world for that though, he drove the hell out of Jeremy all the way to a deserved 1st place in the Ant Rookies.

D+ forfeits vs Wizard Beard, my other bot.

So I learned some things. One, brushed weapon motors - never again. Brushless motors just give you such better mounting options, and it appears that brushless has evolved since I last was at an event. I don't think anyone broke a brushless motor this event, compared to people losing a motor every other fight back in the day. Two, I really need to get a 2.4 GHz radio. So I learned nothing revolutionary, just that I need to keep up with the times. I relearned I suck at building spinners, so to scratch that itch I might just take a good long look at that kitbots drum ant. It does look pretty sweet.

GuavaMoment

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2015, 12:03:04 am »
Wizard Beard was always meant to be a small Limblifter. A simple pushy wedge with a lifting arm. It's made from an old Inertia Labs ant kit, which I'm now sick of. The two big problems with that kit is that there isn't anywhere close to enough room in there to fit all your electronics, and that you have to glue the wheels on to the motor shafts. So my receiver is on top of the bot, right behind the lifting servo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOWrHOsUSwE

Wizard Beard vs Drum Roll Please

This is a match I should have won. DRP is a non-invertable drum spinner, which didn't seem all that dangerous if you were careful. It should have been a really simple fight where I just go in, get to the side and flip it over. The problem was that I used Wizard Beard to fix my mix settings on the radio that I erased when try to get D+ to failsafe. The servo I used was hacked for continuous rotation long ago, and I replaced the potentiometer with a variable resistor to be sure I could get it to center. This version of WB didn't allow 360 motion, but I never had a problem stalling the servo at home. But during the resetting my radio, I stalled the servo for a few seconds and this time it burned out the motor or servo guts or something. So I go into the DRP fight without the servo, or the lifting wedge. At least I did fix the radio settings. During the fight I have some trouble getting under DRP what with having no real wedge. I do get some good pushes in from what I remember, but can't get DRP to the push outs. Then he gets a lucky hit, I'm upside down, and can't self right with no wedge. Great.

Wizard Beard vs D+ (D+ forfeits)

I replace the broken servo (that could lift 3+lbs in the video) with a standard servo that doesn't have enough power to lift 1lb.

Wizard Beard vs Great Scott

Great Scott is a wobbly walker, with a spinning blunt cast aluminium butterfly thing for a weapon. It's all lexan, non-invertable, slow, has lots of exposed parts and the spinner isn't dangerous. The only thing it has going for it is that it's cool looking, and it's over 1lb due to being a walker.  I think I let it spin up so as to put on a show and in the first hit his spinner breaks and a knocker comes off. I push Scott around for a while. I can get under him easily, but don't have the power to flip it with the crap servo I have in it. I try to push him out of the arena, but settle for a hazard when the opportunity arises. A big chunk of Scott gets ripped off, and he taps out before I get a chance to do that again.

Wizard Beard vs Drum Roll Please Part 2

At least I get a chance to redo this fight! I am still able to drive better than DRP, and get a couple of small lifts in. Same story, with the good servo I would have won many times over. Luckily for me, during one of my push/lift attempts things work out so I can just....barely....slowly....tip DRP up and over. I win!

Wizard Beard vs Mark Who Works At Arby's.

Mark is an invertable undercutter spinner, so I have to hope the weapon isn't super powerful, and that I can get under him and push him around. I'm correct on both of these assumptions, but Mark gets the luckiest hit in I may have ever been unlucky enough to suffer. His weapon gets slightly airborne somehow and hits me directly on the receiver. Like, directly on the pins, severing all connections and mashing channels 6 thru 8 together. I see all the wires sticking out the side and new immediately it was over, I'm dead. Even though the rx still works, if this was any other event I'd be really bummed out at the damage it took. But since I need to replace all my receivers to 2.4GHz anyway, it's all good. WB ends up in 4th place.

Rumble

There was a lot going on in that rumble with like 15 robots. I end up upside down which should have been correctable, but I can see my power LED is out somehow. Amazingly I think Metroid or someone hit the same place Mark did, because all my receiver connections were out again, along with some power wire from deeper down in the robot.

I think the Wizard Beard name might live on in the future, but I'm going to say goodbye to the Inertia lab kit. I'm going to try something more simple with my servos in the future.

FingerTech

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2015, 02:56:14 am »
I enjoy reading your event reports.  I miss a lot of fights and these are detailed enough to make me feel like I was watching.  :)

I wonder what radio that R2D2 was running.  I don't think there were many other RC units at the Expo, but we can't rule out channel interference.  I think you'll be much happier with the 2.4GHz stuff anyway.
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needmorercs

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2015, 11:15:52 am »
R2D2 uses 2.4, I talked with the owner when he was at the car show.

GuavaMoment

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2015, 07:33:02 pm »
I should have asked myself, I had a bit of a show when they needed to tweak something literally in front of my table. Big honkin' SLAs in there.


Travis7s

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2015, 07:51:49 pm »
Yeah, move on to the 2.4GHz and never look back, I had forgotten all about how 'radio problem's used to be a thing.

I have had very good luck with the OrangeRX line, (the heatshrink style rx) and especially since I upgraded to the T-Six tx.

Pinky used all Spektrum gear and the response time was horrible compared to my orangerx bots.

GuavaMoment

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2015, 11:31:44 pm »
So let's talk Limblifter. Clearly my most successful robot that wasn't two RC toys stuck together. At last event it had issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqslR8KydnA
I learned (six years ago) that 1/8" garolite was no longer acceptable for the side lifting arms. And you can see that I die in this video for a few seconds a couple of times near the end. This had been happening during long fights for quite a while, but I didn't figure out why until rebuilding for this event. I tore everything down to retighten the gearboxes which had all come loose. Then during testing I find one of my Banebots 3-9 ESCs was really, really hot. I find out that one of the motors was drawing way too much current, making the ESC go into thermal shut down. That's why my drive stopped but the lifting arm still worked in the video above. Shortly after figuring this out the motor just died completely. There are no replacements for Banebots motors, so I had to replace all the motors will the "1000 RPM" beetle motor, which as it turns out was 100% a drop-in replacement. Also to be sure the ESC wasn't at fault and for that extra degree of safety, I replace them with 10A Wasp ESCs.

I now needed to make sure that the lifting plate never breaks again. I replace the side arms with 1/8" 6061 aluminum, and get the whole thing welded together. Noticing the side arms could still bend under a large force, I stiffen them with a 1/8" garolite layer. What used to be the entire side arm is now just the stiffener. Not to get ahead of myself, but this new wedge did not break, so mission accomplished.

Limblifter vs Pinky and The Brain
This was the fight where I realize all my mixing settings are wrong. This was a fight I felt I had a really good chance of winning, as long as I could drive properly. In a complete panic because I don't want to lose this I get a few minutes to play with my radio. I manage to find a state where up is right, right is down, down is left and left is up. So if I hold my TX sideways, it drives like normal. Except "lift" is now stick right. Ugh. The plan for the fight is to ignore Pinky as much as possible since it's the lighter, non-weaponed and invertable of the two and just go after The Brain relentlessly. I was still in a bit of a panic so it's getting hazy, but I remember I could outpush The Brain, and that its weapon (a smallish drum) wasn't too much of a concern. The Brain gets pushed out eventually and I spent something like a minute bashing against Pinky. Limblifter wins judges decision. I had a few gouges in the lifting wedge and it might have been bent slightly, but nothing major. This fight might have been the 2nd biggest grace from the robot Gods next to the time that 1/2 of 3D beat Hellrazer because I forgot to reset a switch on it, paralyzing half the drive.

As an aside, if I push a fully intact The Brain out, does that count as a huge amount of damage in a judges decision? As far as actual, real damage goes I probably lose that 6-0 or whatever, but if pushing out counts as damaging 74% of the multibot then do I win damage, like 4-2?

In the pits I find the lifting motor isn't working. The final stage planetary gears are all stripped, which has never happened before. Not a problem I have lots of spares for that. I fix my radio mix too.

Limblifter vs Broadside
This was another fight I knew I could win. I forgot that Broadside is now non-invertable, but even when it could drive upside down, without its magnets it's easy fodder to push where I want. I'm not a fan of big wide wedges, preferring my wedges to come to a narrow section, and with the sharpened spring steel I use, I knew I could get under Broadside easily. Which I do, much to the surprise of Travis or some other veteran watching the fight. So Broadside goes upside down in the first three seconds. It's not moving and I see Dirk through the arena looking very depressed as he throws his hands up. It's only at that point I remember Broadside can't drive upside down, so in the interest of having some fun and showing off, I go push Broadside into a hazard before I try for a pushout/wait for a countout. I flipped him over easily, I can do it again if I have to. After a couple of hits the hazard rights Broadside and he comes back at me. He got terrifyingly close to getting me pushed out, but I think I spazflipped over him into safety. I'm getting a little worried that I've made a horrible decision, so I make sure I'm in a safe place to get the wedge lined up. I do get Broadside flipped again and signal to the judges that I'm just going to take the victory at this point. Phew!

Limblifter vs Black Adder

Um.


Hi.


So Black Adder. It's a drumbot with a smaller-ish drum about 2 or 3 inches long. I more or less fought that in The Brain, right? So same plan, go in relentlessly, flip it over, push it out. Now, no one can say I didn't do that first part. There may have been a small delay after the first hit which taco'd my lifting wedge pretty bad as I realized BA had much more power than I thought it did. But back in I go. Big hit. Back in I go. I'm losing bits after every hit. The lifting wedge gets taco'd REALLY bad. Then the non-powered arm comes out. Then a wheel goes. Then another wheel. Then the whole lifting wedge gets blasted off. (It didn't break though! Yay for small victories!) I see the shaft is bent. Good thing the gearbox with the broken gears had a perfectly fine shaft I could use for the next fight! Black Adder actually shaves off a good 1/4" around the outside of one of the 2" wheels. The announcer is loving this, exclaiming how Limblifter is still driving around on two wheels. I correct him by yelling "one and a half!". At some point the entire front nose gets broken off. Good lord, Kurtis. Thank God I don't keep my battery or power switch in there anymore. I did have much of my antenna there however, so it gets torn off. Now I have connection issues. There's one point where I'm either pushing directly against the drum, or he's got me on a wall but the result is a incredibly visible shower of white UHMW particles flying off my robot. I look at Kurtis and see his "unbridled glee" face. Now the match goes down as a KO only because after about 2 minutes of abuse I get knocked against the wall in a way I can't flip or drive away from. Because I have no flipper arm. Or the majority of my wheels. But in the video (uploaded soon, right Dirk?) you'll see the drive is still going! I take pride in that. And also I know that I likely have "robot that fell apart the most" prize on f'ing lockdown. Thankfully that was the last fight of the day, so I had a good long time to fix everything. Bash the lifting wedge back into shape, find the best of my remaining 2" wheels, ignore the front nose because it's such a pain to put that back on, but by the dawn of the 2nd day, Limblifter is back, baby. Too bad I lost that fight, I really wanted to go against Utopia, which was who the winner fought.

Limblifter vs Super Shooter McGavin

SSM is an invertable undercutter. I again wasn't too worried about the spinner. I don't remember what damage I suffered in the fight. What I remember is that I do take a couple of good hits, but I was attacking SSM a lot, got a few flips in I think, and a few near pushouts. I was really sure I lost the fight, so was a little surprised to hear I lost a split decision. Fair enough, I'll take it. Limblifter finishes tied for 5th place, and as Travis said, I proved that a good 6 year old bot can at least hang with the current gen. If I had won, I would get to fight Pinky and The Brain again (a likely win) and the Utopia. That Utopia fight just didn't want to happen, sadly.

Rumble
My lifting wedge is taco'd so badly it's hard to get under people, so I have some fun somersaulting around instead of driving. I'm sure it looked cool. I know at one point Pinky drives/gets pushed square onto my wedge and I absolutely suplex the hell out of it. It'd be nice to fight 1lb robots all the time with Limblifter! As fate would have it, Black Adder and myself are the only ones left in the arena and still working. I don't get any revenge in, and lose another wheel, but Limblifter survives the rumble, which only Black Adder can also say. Since Black Adder won the tournament as well as the rumble, so I have no problem losing to a better robot.

I do win "robot that fell apart the most"  and get some mini-gorilla tape and gorilla glue, which is great because I needed both of those things, and will use them.

For the future, Limblifter needs a new frame. I like the look of the Kitbot beetle brick design. I'm not going to buy it because it's too large and heavy for what I need, but I can build one just like it that's more compact. As for the wedges, I need new ones, and they need to be modular. The current one is great for other wedges. For drums I think I need like a section of a pipe to act as both a wedge and to deflect drum hits. Maybe something that's just an UHMW block for other spinners to eat without causing real damage.

Kaldonis

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2015, 01:37:46 pm »
I was judging the LL v Pinky/Brain fight and had the same question about how to score it when Pinky was knocked out. Kurtis suggested that it count as control instead of damage.

FingerTech

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2015, 03:26:44 pm »
"Unbridled glee face"  :)
We do need to figure out how to score knocking out a multibot.  Control makes the most sense to me, but it could also be looked at as damage.  Like if you pushed out the weaponed half, you've "destroyed" the weapon of the bot, no?
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Kaldonis

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2015, 08:56:54 pm »
Control makes more sense than aggression if you look at the SPARC judging guidelines, specifically this paragraph:
Quote
The primary means of scoring points in this category (control) involves using elements of the robot or arena against the opponent in a manner that doesn’t directly involve the weapon system of the robot causing damage

However, it seems crazy to me that Pinky/Brain could win a JD in a match where Brain is pushed out. I would almost propose that a pushout count as both damage and control just to make it harder for the multibot to win a JD in this scenario. Given that in a 1v1 a pushout is an insta-win, it seems wrong that it only count towards 35% of the JD (6 out of 17 possible points).

If you think about it, it could almost even count towards aggression! If Brain is pushed out, that 74% of the bot that can't show any aggression for the remainder of the fight.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 09:01:01 pm by Kaldonis »

Travis7s

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Re: Guava Fleet
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2015, 11:29:27 pm »
I agree that it would be difficult to win a decision when the "main" bot is pushed out/KO'd, unless perhaps it was dominating the fight and was eliminated near the very end, or drove itself out.

There are other confusing aspects about them. Can they counted out of a fight? Lets say Brain gets inverted and can't move, but then 30 seconds later he gets bumped back over again.

Obviously I'm biased here but I hate to see even more restrictions imposed on the multibots such as extra harsh judging. Historically multibots have always been at a major disadvantage, PATB is the only one in our club to ever have an ounce of success.